How do two “elder statesmen” view current politics? Markus Lanz wants to find out on Wednesday evening in his ZDF talk show. Guests are FDP veteran Gerhart Baum and the eldest son of former Chancellor Willy Brandt.
They have one thing in common: Both had their birthday a few days ago. Ex-Federal Minister of the Interior and FDP veteran Gerhart Baum has just turned 90, while Peter Brandt, at 74, looks almost like a youngster. Both are still watching current politics.
Peter Brandt, the eldest son of ex-Chancellor Willy Brandt, is a historian. He cannot understand the current discussion about economic cooperation between Germany and China. “China is an authoritarian system,” he says at Markus Lanz, “but it is a successful economic model.” Millions of people have been lifted out of poverty in recent years. However, one should not deny the human rights violations in the country.
In contrast, the economic system in Russia, for example, is not successful because it is geared exclusively to the export of raw materials, says Brandt Und: “It is highly parasitic when it comes to the oligarchic economy.”
FDP politician Baum can only agree with him. “The Russians no longer attach importance to economic development,” he says. China also has at least limited collective governance. “Russia doesn’t have that anymore. Putin is completely alone.” Nevertheless, Baum is clear: “You can only live humanely in a democracy.” But according to Baum, the democratic countries have a problem – and that is the increase in authoritarian states around the world.
Peter Brandt knows that too. The historian finds economic relations with countries like China in order. However, one should not enter into economic dependencies again.
Brandt and Baum differed in their assessment of the war in the Ukraine. Brandt has no sympathy for the Russian attack on Ukraine, “and I hardly know any people who dispute Ukraine’s right to self-defense,” says the historian. Nevertheless, he pleads for a differentiated analysis of the history leading up to this war. “It was a mechanism that involved both sides.” For example, NATO’s eastward expansion was perceived differently in Russia than in Western Europe. “Russia’s security interests have not been given enough attention,” criticizes Brandt.
For him, the assertion that the war in Eastern Europe is only about Ukraine and Russia falls short of the mark. He sees a proxy war between Russia, NATO and the US.
Baum cannot accept that. Yes, the war has long since not only affected Russia and Ukraine, but: “It is a war between those who defend international law and those who trample on it.” Russia wants to destroy Ukraine as a country and as a democracy. “Ukraine is helping us to defend human rights: we are supplying arms, and the Ukrainians are sacrificing their lives.”
While Baum criticizes Russian President Vladimir Putin’s nuclear weapons threats, Brandt would also like to differentiate on this point. So far there has only been one country that has used atomic bombs for war purposes, and that was the USA. “What Russia is doing is a breach of international law. But there are also a lot of war crimes committed by the USA. To say that we are the good guys is wrong,” he says.
The United States has only one interest in this war, and that is to weaken Russia. But the United States is also the only one capable of ending the war in Ukraine, but only together with China, the historian believes.
Even if Brandt and Baum differ in their assessment of the war in Ukraine, they agree on one point. And Baum puts it at the end of the conversation: “If your father were alive today, he would have gone to Kyiv,” he says to Brandt, “and with Genscher.”
